Are we always saved, or can we take a look at the gift given to us, once received, and then throw it back at the Giver? Honestly the question doesn’t even matter, for either we have been justified in our faith or we haven’t. It’s a question pondered by those who have the luxury of time to weigh such a heavy topic, and of course I have nothing but time on my hands, hence…
It would start to grate on some people the idea that we have a Father who would condemn those who, if given the chance, may receive Him. Others would throw a fit that we are “taking away” the omnipotence of God if we are to say that He has no hand in it. If asked what side of the fence I stand on, I might ask the question, “If I have to take a stance on whether I believe we are always saved once saved or not, do I have to say that our God is either benevolent or if He is omnipotent and omniscient?” I hope I wouldn’t have to choose either or, for I think He’s both. But it is the case that either He chooses whether we are saved or not, or He does not choose whether we are saved or not.
The question of our salvation only becomes clear when we concern ourselves with the ideas of Predestination and Free Will. Now, most people would believe in some sort of destiny at hand, but we also like to think ourselves as intelligent creatures choosing to go this route or believe in this cause. But usually when I talk about this, people are more likely to champion their desire with a Free Will stance rather than Predestination. Usually their biggest concern is with the L in TULIP, which is Limited Atonement, that Christ would only atone for the sins of the elect, the chosen or saved. This is opposed to the idea that He died for all sins, which people believe goes against their idea of God and what the Scriptures says. It is also true that, no matter which way you’re looking at Free Will you have a God who is either holding back His full power over mankind or is closing His eyes to the future, limiting the words omnipotent and omniscient to mostly omnipotent or mostly omniscient.
I fear this is a battle that may wage for longer than I will be alive. Let’s step back a bit and do some exercises. Now, when talking about Predestination and Free Will, we would want to frame it only to our salvation and leave out the physical world, that is, whether God is controlling each and every movement I make or if He is allowing me to run amok. Suppose it was the former, that God is a puppeteer: would it make any sense at all if He was giving us a choice to love or not love Him, to make Him Lord of our lives or for us to be our own masters? A bit ridiculous to think on, right? How about we reverse it: would I be truly free to do whatever I want if my hand is forced to love Him or not love Him? I must wag my finger at these illogical claims. They cannot be! ‘Twould be like saying that this pencil in my hand is not a pencil but a duck. The pencil either is or is not, and never both.
It may be comforting to think that we have a choice, but then it must mean that I can lose my salvation. If that is too scary a thought, then I am left with the idea that we are merely robots and have no love within us. A tragedy, no? But, hark… what do I hear from yonder? It’s the past to greet us with glad tidings! I remember a woman when I was a freshman who would encourage my playful thinking on such matters. She gave me an example to say that it’s both: We are inside a fence in which we can roam any way we want, but we may never venture forth outside the fence. It was a great way to ease my mind from these thoughts and be lulled into thinking it can be both and that I can basically choose whatever way I please in any situation.
If that is truly the case, that we have both a limited free will and a limited destiny, then what are the limits? Might be easy enough to say that our physical limits restrain us. But let’s put some thought into it.
…
It would have to be God who’s doing the limiting. And in that way, He is either to some giving them the choice to do what they want, to love Him or leave Him, and to others He is controlling their destiny of whether they will love Him or always look away. Yet, this solves nothing. We are still left with the bitter taste of either stance we are championing. In fact, we have to burden ourselves with the other stance, which is making things more complicated and makes my brows frown. Poo. Maybe it would be better to leave this sort of thing to God while I go off perfecting my futilities.
I always heard that it is both. And that is what tends to make sense to me. Because things of God can only be spiritually discerned, there has to be some sense of God interfering in a person’s life of sin in order for them to be saved.
I think God knows if you’ll be saved or not, but at no point does he force your hand. Instead allows us to figure it out for ourselves, thus truly making it our choice to accept Christ or not. God wants us to love Him the way He loves us, and if He forced us to, it wouldn’t be love at all.
Comment by eyes2read — August 22, 2011 @ 7:17 pm |
Yeah, I know. It’s the typical Christian response, and the only reason I blogged about the topic is that I don’t think it’s supposed to be an easy idea to hold. With your response, you have to realize that your view is making God less, for by Him not “forcing my hand” concerning my salvation then He is not being an omnipotent being. The Lord is the Lord, and there’s nothing anyone can stop Him from truly doing what He wills. It’s just… and I know the importance of Him being an all loving (benevolent) Creator, but I also know Him to being the One who has the power to raise me from the dead.
Comment by fourwordinstigate — August 23, 2011 @ 5:45 pm |
“Free will” is really quite limited, despite belief that we control ourselves and our lives. We think we have endless choices…until we try to make them. Each decision must not only be based on what we “want to do,” but also on our own capabilities and what is expected of us. Nature and society imprison us, whether we like it or not. The key to release is mystical realization. All in One and One in All, the divine unity, opens the gate between heaven and Earth…between a universal consciousness and most people’s constrained awareness.
Comment by Ron Krumpos — August 22, 2011 @ 10:49 pm |
I too believe that “Free Will” is limited. I think anyone who’s sprouting a complete free will is a bit nuts. I just wanted to say two things: funny how you capitalize Earth and not Heaven, as though Heaven isn’t as real as the Earth, and especially after the whole key being mystical realization. I don’t know… do you even believe that?
Second thing, I’ve been toying with the idea of Free Will concerning our daily lives and it’s opponent, Predestination. I think it makes for great arguments, but just so that you know the harder idea to wrap our minds around is whether God is giving us a choice in the matter of choosing Him or if He’s God of even this! Just something to nibble on while we pass the time.
Comment by fourwordinstigate — August 23, 2011 @ 5:49 pm |
You jumped on one letter (h vs. H) and said “as though Heaven isn’t as real as the Earth, and especially after the whole key being mystical realization. I don’t know… do you even believe that?”/i> It was a typo, but now that you mentioned it…
Heaven (or paradise) is a concept which varies between religions and within the divisions of each faith. The image of Heaven will differ among most people, too. Mystical realization is free from concepts and images. If you have been to Heaven please describe it for us.
Comment by Ron Krumpos — August 23, 2011 @ 7:49 pm
about the h and H thingy: yearrrhh… Heaven to me is as real as the Earth, hence when I refer to Heaven I never use the little h. It’s always a proper noun, hence Heaven as opposed to “heaven”. I won’t say that I’ve ever been to Heaven, but I will say that I’ve met the Christian God, and since He exists (and God is perfect so God would never lie, which that ought to be part of His definition but I know some people wouldn’t jump to that premise), so too does Heaven exists as He’s talked about it.
Comment by fourwordinstigate — August 23, 2011 @ 8:07 pm |
I really like this post and have thought about these very same questions.
Is it truly possible to lose one’s salvation? If you’re truly saved, then you would have no desire to turn back to the ways of sin. A while back I was pondering the question of whether someone gave their life to Christ, and then got amnesia and became a serial killer, would he/she still be saved? It’s a fascinating question. I don’t think it’s possible to become unsaved since when we turn our lives over to God he gives us his Holy Spirit which then lives in us, and even if we did turn back to our sins, I think he would at some point draw us back.
The question of free will and predestination is a very tough subject. God wants all people to come into a relationship with him, so why would he inhibit some people from coming to him? And if he wants a real relationship with genuine love from both sides, than the conclusion that I come to is that we are not predestined but do indeed have free will. But God is all knowing, so he does know what decision you will make. I like what eyes2read said above, “I think God knows if you’ll be saved or not, but at no point does he force your hand. Instead allows us to figure it out for ourselves, thus truly making it our choice to accept Christ or not.”
And on that note, since God is all knowing, then he must have known that humanity would sin, so why did he let all the bad stuff happen? Why did he allow the serpent to get into the garden? Why didn’t he keep Adam and Eve from going near the fruit tree? Why did he even put the tree in the garden of Eden? Well, they were all choices between choosing God or not choosing Him. Eve was given the choice to listen to the serpent or to God; Adam and Eve were given the choice to obey God and not eat the fruit, or to do what they wanted. And even though Adam and Eve chose to not obey God, they still went to Heaven, right? All of humanity has been given that choice: “God or myself?” And that decision is the sole thing that makes a relationship real, the only way to have a relationship was for there to be a choice. And if we’re predestined, like where God chose who would live eternally with Him and who would live eternally in hell, then there really is no free will, which means there really isn’t a real relationship at all.
However, this is God’s business, so I don’t think it’s as black and white as sometimes we make it out to be. One day we’ll understand better, and that will be a glorious day indeed.
Comment by gathmandais — August 23, 2011 @ 1:20 am |
I like the last thought you leave behind. It is God’s business, and God will whatever He wills! Very good! I guess the only thing I would like to leave with you is, again with what eyes2read comments on is that this is a hard idea to ponder about. The more and more I talk to people, the more it seems that they do not want to diminish God’s control but not at the expense of choosing Him. If I could go biblical: Romans 7 and 9 take both views into account, where in 7 we have that much talked about verse where Paul talks on how he does what he does not want to do and that which he hates he does. That to me smells a lot like Paul is taking a Free Will stance, that we have a choice in what we do, and that should entail that we are free to choose God. Yet in chapter 9 Paul talking about how the clay has no right to tell the potter how it should be made. He even goes so far to say that, “What if God, desiring to show His Wrath and to make known His Power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction.” Sorta looks like to me God endures the creation He makes to eternal damnation.
Regardless, you’re right that this is God’s business. I don’t want to go either one way or the other, but I do want to understand Him better and to know Him more. I think this helps in accomplishing just that.
Comment by fourwordinstigate — August 23, 2011 @ 6:04 pm |